In La Tavola Ritonda, the Orkneys' loyalties are a bit different: all of them except for Mordred are in on trying to reveal the affair, with Gawain as the leader. They prepare an ambush, which Lancelot escapes after killing Agravaine, Gaheris, and eight unnamed knights.
As would be expected, Gawain furiously tries to avenge his brothers—though it isn't quite the same, since he already had a vendetta against Lancelot and might have duelled him anyway.
Regardless, Gareth, presumably still alive but now unimportant to the narrative, is never heard from again.
In a way, Lancelot saved Gareth (and Gaheris) in killing them, bc we will never know if they would've taken Mordred's side. And I think a lot of people in and out of the narrative would like to assume Gareth wouldn't but we don't know and I genuinely believe it could've gone either way. AND in overshadowing their protest in his own actions, Lancelot obscures a key piece of evidence that Gareth and Gaheris might have gone against Arthur.
As much as I love these boys, the most "important*" thing they do is to die, and become martyrs for Gawain's vengeance against Lancelot. And like many martyrs what they actual thought, believed, or would have done stops mattering when the bodies hit the floor....
*or well, memorable. Most impactful on the main through line, and most incorporated across texts and retellings
This is what happens when you mash together a revenge quest, a slasher movie, a buddy road trip, a bildungsroman, a fantasy epic, and a shaggy dog story and set it in medieval times. Because there aren’t many Irish Arthurian texts, whether Bhalbhuaidh, the protagonist, is meant to be Gawain or Galahad is controversial. His name and titles could point to either and his life situation seems more like Gawain’s, but I will refer to him Galahad because I find the idea of a Galahad AU where he’s pagan and gallivants around with a prince who was turned into a giant dog and lost all qualms about murder along the way entertaining. It starts when Arthur, who inexplicably holds the title of King of the World, convenes a hunt in the Dangerous Forest on the Plain of Wonders and the mysterious Knight of the Lantern does what any antagonistic knight worth his salt would do: gatecrash and ask for violence. It gets less normal very rapidly from there. Abhlach the druidess is at least as awesome as she is wicked, Galahad may or may not have a magical music-making sword, and the fact that there’s an Island of Naked Monks is never given any explanation because it’s only mentioned in passing when the dog tells Galahad he killed them all.
Yeah, it’s a fun read.
Here’s a link to the translation I read:
At one point, Dagbert describes his curse by saying that in his thirteenth year, the firstborn son of “the Lord Grimwald” must kill or be killed by his father, which suggests that, if the character referred to as Lord Grimwald has multiple names, the title Lord Grimwald is the most official, the one he most favors, or the one which is most closely linked to his identity. Regardless, it’s a hereditary title, which means that, by the end, Dagbert is the Lord Grimwald and has his own castle. (This is never additionally ).
From the way Dagbert and Lord Grimwald describe it, it sounds like they started calling Dagbert “Dagbert Endless” for the heck of it. It would be very cool if his many names came from his mother—there is so much untapped potential that comes with the half-mermaid thing—and it would also make sense if Dagbert’s many names were a necessity. If he keeps committing murder/magical manslaughter (depending on how much control he’s in), he might be a wanted criminal under some name(s) and need aliases.
Dagbert having endless surnames but Lord Grimwald only having "Grimwald" implies Dagbert either inherited his many surnames from his mother, or Lord Grimwald also has many surnames but managed to pick one. If they're from his mother, it implies that mermaids all have long names. If they're from his father, then I think it's safe to say that a man who chose the name "Grimwald" is likely to be the idiot who decided to name a baby "Dagbert". In this essay I will
you seem like the right person to ask about jewish knights and judaism in general in arthurian legend
Hello! Apologies for how long it has taken me to respond to this! Throughout the Middle Ages and the early modern period, there were a number of Arthurian texts written by and for Jewish people in Jewish languages. The one I specialize in is an Old Yiddish text called Vidvilt, which is part of the Fair Unknown tradition and based off an earlier German text called Wigalois. This text was super popular in the Yiddish-speaking world for about three centuries or so and was reworked and reprinted a number of times. I already discussed some of those adaptations a while ago in response to this ask.
Predating Vidvilt, there was a Hebrew Arthurian text written in the 13th century which is now commonly known as Melekh Artus. This was based on Old French sources and tells the story of Arthur's birth and Lancelot's affair with Guinevere before breaking off unfinished. The most common edition of the text used today is the one by Curt Leviant, though I just read a fascinating article in the latest issue of the Journal of the International Arthurian Society calling into question some of his transcription choices and the conclusions he draws in his analysis of the text.
I also recently read that a fragment of an Arthurian text in Judeo-Catalan was recently discovered, but I'm afraid I don't know much about it as yet other than that it's apparently a late medieval adaptation of Jaufre.
Chivalric romances of both Christian and Jewish origin were extremely popular among medieval and early modern Jews in general. There were a number of non-Arthurian knight stories that were very popular as well; for example, the most famous and influential work of early Yiddish literature was a chivalric epic called Bovo d'Antona, and a survey I read of the literature in Jewish households in early modern Italy shows that the most popular non-religious work among Jews at that time was Orlando Furioso.
It is worth noting that, even though some of these texts were written by and for Jews, that doesn't necessarily mean that the characters in them were Jewish. Jewish writers generally tended to modify their Christian source materials by gliding over or obscuring references to religion, rather than depicting Judaism directly (the reasons for this are complex and could constitute a whole paper, so I won't get into it here). That being said, medieval Jewish knights did exist in real life, too! There are a few medieval historians who do research into exactly when, where, and under what circumstances Jews were allowed to bear arms, but it definitely wasn't exclusively a literary thing.
Does anyone know any songs which relate well to Gaheris? He is one of a few gaping holes on my Alarmingly Vast Arthurian Themesong List.
I have a few conflicting sets of headcanons—if character X is ______, then character Y is ______, based on their interactions—so I stuck with people who I only have one headcanon for who immediately came to mind. Most of the characters seem ace, probably because these are meant as children’s books, so these are for romantic orientation.
Aro Alice Angel, Inez Branko**, Claerwen
Bi Asa Pike, Olivia Vertigo, Ezekiel Bloor, Grizelda Bone*, Idith Branko**
Gay Manfred Bloor
Straight Emma Tolly
*Maybe one day I’ll write a fic set when Alice Angel is living at Charlie’s house where Alice thinks that Grizelda is calm and remote because Alice is doing her Jedi mind trick thing, Grizelda thinks that she feels dizzy and confused because she has a crush on Alice, and the answer is probably both.
**This is going off my deep desire to differentiate Idith and Inez rather than anything in the plot. They are not the same person. That’s not how identical twins work, unless one of them is the other’s magically created doppelgänger illusion or something, which isn’t impossible but seems unlikely, since they argue.
so what are your guy's sexuality headcanons
bc why not
♘ Favourite Knight/King
🫅Favorite Lady/Damsol/Queen
💚 Favorite Quest/Story Arc
✒A Medieval Text You Like
📚A Retelling/Modern Work You Like
📽Recommend a book/movie/tv show etc
💛A Sibling Group/Dynamic That IS NOT The Orkneys
🏴Okay Now You Can Talk About Orkneys
😤Your Most Specific Nitpick About Your Fave (anything from "Gareth would not have a beard" to "this is basically a different guy")
🥰An Arthuriana Headcanon
😏Gawain?
🥖Favorite French/du lac (Lancelot, Hector de Maris, Bors, Lionel, Galahad, ect)
👨👦Favorite Parent
🗡️Who Are You Betting On In This Month's Tournament?
🙏Pick A Grail Knight
🏴Pick A Pelli Spawn (Percival, Aglovale, Tor, Lamorak, Aylane, Dindrane, Donar, ect)
💏Crack Ship (s)
🫂Platonic Ship(s)
The funny thing is that in Knight of the Parrot, Arthur leaves KING LOT HIMSELF in charge and somehow everything turns out swell.
i’ll leave my nephew in control of the kingdom while i go to fight in rome it’ll be fine
Happy Passover to all my fellow Jews. May your holiday be peaceful and meaningful. I hope you got rid of your chametz at a non-stressful time.
Let my people know.
Memes of Judaism
(Source: Pa Gur yv y Porthaur)
Here is the excerpt portraying the hero Cai ap Cynyr, later known as Sir Kay, defeating the dreaded monster, Cath Palug (meaning "Palug's Cat" or "Clawing Cat").
And it's a pretty fearsome beast - over 180 in a single night died to it before Kay came to kill it himself. But reviewing it for a bit I noticed the translation says "Nine Score Chieftains" and I thought "wait does this mean a hundred and eighty war leaders and not simply champions? Does that mean Cath Palug also killed their retinues?".
In the history of Welsh Warfare, the Teulu (meaning "family"), was an important and primary element of Military power, being the personal household guard under the patronage of a Welsh lord. The size of these Teulu warbands, depending on the wealth of a chief, could range anywhere from 50 to 120 warriors. (Llywellyn ap Gryffyd had a teulu of 160 men)
So, I took a close look at the original Welsh text:
...and identified the words being translated are "kinlluc" and "kinran"
Afterwards, I went over to the online Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru/A Dictionary of the Welsh Language (HERE) to clarify their meaning:
So yes, the poem is referring to 180 war leaders getting slaughtered overnight by the monster cat. But, the implication here is that, reasonably and common sense-wise, the chieftains brought along their warbands to hunt a wild animal.
This means, if we choose to interpret the poem saying Cath Palug killed both the chiefs AND their teulu (around say a hundred warriors each), then we are looking at anywhere up to 18,000 warriors and their leaders being massacred by Cath Palug in a single night.
Which gives us a sense of scale of how powerful Cath Palug and its slayer, Sir Kay, must have been.
(Probably still not as powerful as Arthur, given his battle with Twrch Trwyth...)
The two with the most votes go through so vote, vote, vote!!! (Also no poll on Sunday! We chill on Sundays!)
In which I ramble about poetry, Arthuriana, aroace stuff, etc. In theory. In practice, it's almost all Arthuriana.
215 posts