Even As Someone Who Is Pro-endogenic, I Think It Is Important To Say That The Research Done On DID, OSDD,

Silent repost…

Though admittedly, it has gotten a lot better since the last time I have been in plural spaces… but there is still room for major improvement.

Blog posts like these still speak to me now as much as they did back then.

i hate the idea of syscourse being CDD systems versus endos because im fucking traumaENDO and i have DID. and i know people like me are forgotten because it makes discourse easier but it doesn't make me and people like me feel any more safe with any of yall. in fact it makes me see yall as less safe in general.

You have more in common than you think. After all, we're all here, aren't we?

Syscourse often creates lines. Endogenic VS Traumagenic. Anti-endo VS Pro-endo. Disordered VS Non-disordered.

But each of these binaries is a spectrum, just as all things are. There's middle grounds, and even in terms of these binary ideas, they are also spectrums in of themselves.

We often push others away due to these binaries, and often feel swells of anger about these binaries. Today, I want to challenge everyone to step back and find the commonalities in what others say.

Remember: there's someone real on the other side of those words. They're not just a cruel comment -- they're a person.

reblog if you're traumaendo and you feel alone in the system community.

the point of this is to see how many people feel similarly.

This was also my experience. It’s both comforting and depressing to know I wasn’t the only one who went through this.

I'm tired of this narrative that it's just the endogenics or it's just the anti-endos being ableist because it is typically the vocal minorities in BOTH groups who are doing this behavior. I'm going to be talking about my experiences with how both sides hurt me here but this isn't me throwing a pity party or anything just want to draw attention to things.

Starting out in the system community as a trauma formed system I of course initially interacted with CDD spaces which of course led me to interact with a decent number of anti-endos. Unfortunately when I first started discussing my experiences with the disorder which 100% do not fit into the anti-endo box of how a CDD system is supposed to experience their system I immediately got dubbed as an endogenic and got pushed out of CDD spaces over and over.

I was repeatedly the excuse anti-endos would use to say endogenics were invading their spaces and using their terms. They repeatedly acted as if they were better than me because they had trauma because despite the fact that I repeatedly discussed having childhood trauma because they dubbed me as endogenic I therefore could not have experienced any trauma in my life and was therefore lesser than them. I was just that faker destroying the community because they never once sought to understand the trauma basis for my odd presentations.

Of course not being accepted by other CDD systems in the anti-endo community of course I felt more comfortable with the pro-endo community who were accepting of my trauma and my system experiences. The one main thing they did though... was convince me due to how my symptoms presented I couldn't be experiencing distress/disfunction(which I was) because of the symptoms of the disorder and was therefore a non-disordered system. This held me back from seeking care for the disorder for multiple years.

If you are following along you might notice BOTH sides repeatedly told me I did not need treatment for my experiences. Both sides tried to convince me I was healthy and thriving while I was dealing with severe trauma responses that were subtlety destroying my life.

And the people who helped. The people who recognized how my presentation of the disorder was a valid but commonly overlooked one because of how high functioning I present outwardly with the symptoms. Were people who acknowledge the ableism in both sides. Ones that are willing to call it out in both sides. Those are the people in syscourse who weren't ableist towards me.

And this isn't to say everyone on both sides is a monster but to say what both sides promote as what is and isn't a CDD experience ends up being used for ableism by members of that respective side. Both sides struggle to define CDD systems in a way that ACTUALLY defines ALL CDD systems. And there are always going to be CDD systems who are victims of ableism from both sides of syscourse because of it.

anti-endos expect endogenic Systems to produce 137 quadruple-peer-reviewed studies each with N=10,000+ participants in an fMRI scan with a voxel resolution of 1 µm³ showing to within p<0.00000001 that endogenic Systems are real, meanwhile the existence of their disorder is still being attacked by people with impressive credentials

Ough wait a second....you're..."photogenic"? You need trauma to be a system, dumbass.

Here’s my metaphor for systemhood that I tell my singlet friends.

Imagine you’re playing a first person video game. You have the controller, you control your character. It’s a normal first person game. You are an alter, the character is the body. This is fronting.

Other people live with you. Sometimes, they come into the room and sit and watch while you play. They sometimes try to guide you, give you advice on what to do next. They don’t always agree, and they can argue with each other. Other times they scream at you that you’re doing everything wrong and you suck at this game. This is co-consciousness.

Imagine how distracting it would be for people around you to tell you what to do, or to scream at each other or at you, even if they have good intentions. It wouldn’t be easy to focus on your game, would it?

Then sometimes, something happens in the game that prompts you to hand off the controller to someone else so they can play and you get a break. This is (some types of) switching. This can be good.

Other times, someone rips the controller out of your hand or fights you for it. This is (other types of) switching. And sometimes, six other players hook up their controllers, but there’s only one character to play as. So all of you have your controllers, but you’re all trying to play the same character. This is cofronting.

Imagine how difficult that would be. Imagine how hard it would be to try and play a game while someone is trying to take the controller from you, or while six other people are trying to play too.

There are also times that nobody is playing, or you can’t decide who should play. What’s happening to the character in the game? What are they doing if no one is playing? This is dissociation. The character is doing nothing. They’re stuck.

This is the best metaphor I have come up with for being a system. It’s something a lot of people get because they’ve played games before.

I don't think it's pro endo and anti endo

I think it's those who think CDDs are trauma based and those who don't

From there, personal interpretation and nuance is perfectly okay and should even be encouraged, and that's true for both sides

These spaces should never cross or there will be problems

It should be this simple

In looking for more mixed origin specific spaces I created a mixed origin system community. Just a space to hang out and discuss experiences with other mixed origin systems. If you are interested here's a link :)

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Mixed Origin Hangout • Community on Tumblr

A space for mixed origin systems to hang out and discuss their experiences.

so here's our thing, as a traumagenic system, right. for the longest time we thought we *couldn't* be plural because we "were not traumatized" and we only ever heard about DID-style, traumatized-at-5 systems. thing is, our trauma was just under lock and key of a lot of trauma-locked memories. we're completely pro-endo, because relying on diagnostic criteria helps *no one.*

Hey, Mod Quill here.

For a very, very long time, I was convinced I had DID without trauma. I was firmly pro-endo because I didn't have any trauma, so the DID community didn't welcome me. I wasn't like those other systems; I didn't have trauma, I wasn't upset, I never remembered fighting with my parts! Moreover, the endogenic community welcomed me with open arms, telling me over, and over... and over... and over... just how not traumatized I was.

Even after I started to realize I was in an active abuse situation. Even after I started noticing my symptoms more and more. Even after anti-endos had patiently and kindly (I know, insane to think about) explained that I likely just didn't remember my trauma before, and that what I described as clear and blatant symptoms were equally clear and blatant trauma responses.

I was, essentially, kicked out of pro-endo communities, way back when, because I was too traumatized, and too confrontational when people told me all the reasons I couldn't be traumatized -- such as "too rich," "too white," and "but your parents loved you." That last one was almost constant.

And you know what's remarkable?

Trauma is not part of the diagnostic criteria for DID. Is it a requirement? Yes! But it IS NOT part of the criteria.

You know what is?

Alteration of identity, causing marked issues with sense of self, and affecting many aspects of life (like social relationships, cognition, agency, etc)

Amnesia in some regard (inconsistent with normal forgetfulness)

Distress OR Dysfunction (and thank FUCK Mod Dude explained what dysfunction means, if it's hurdles in your path that you've learned to get over, guess what, neurotypicals don't have those at all)

I experienced all of these. Therefore, I have DID.

And therefore, controversially, many endogenic systems have DID. By the diagnostic criteria. If they experience these three things, that's disordered, babey! It doesn't fucking matter what their trauma history is.

The thing is, I have not known any systems personally who do have these things... without also having trauma. And that's because of many, many different things, but the fact of the matter is, in DID, the alters are a trauma response, not just an additional "thing that normally happens" to systems. And I say this as a DID system with mixed-origins.

Knowing this diagnostic criteria helped me so much. It helped me get the help I fucking needed. It helped me understand the hell was happening to me, and why it was so much worse around my (what I later learned were) abusers.

I'm sorry to say this, but comments like yours are one of many, many reasons why I'm no longer comfortable using pro-endo as a label. Too often, in the effort to support endogenic systems, DID systems and what is helpful for many of us gets... discarded. And that's not right.

I'm not saying what you went through was right either. And it sucks that you couldn't find anyone to relate to, or who could give you the proper information you needed. But the fact is, the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-5 is not to blame for that, and saying it "helps no one" is offensive to those of us who would have died without a diagnosis.

The thing to blame for not having the proper information is people spreading misinfo about DID, people spreading misinfo about systemhood in general, and a lack of role models within the community as it is.

We, as systems, need to be more and more vocal about different presentations of systemhood -- especially since the concept of systemhood is now kind of getting more and more public eye on it. And at the end of the day, it doesn't fucking matter if people are traumatized or not! It doesn't matter if people are pro-endo, anti-endo, or not fucking with syscourse. It doesn't matter if people are diagnosed, self-diagnosed, medically recognized, or not fucking with labels. It doesn't matter if someone is ACTUALLY a system or not!

What matters is getting the help we need. What matters is people getting the diagnosis they need, if that's even something they need. What matters is seeing people with life-long trauma disorders learn to thrive and heal and recover, regardless of what recovery might be for them.

Pro-endo doesn't mean discarding the DSM. Or at least, I highly doubt those who use that label mean it that way. And maybe you didn't either, and I'm sorry to have gone off so long. It's just...

I've seen too much anti-medicalism from pro-endos to trust it anymore, especially as someone who has had to deal with... a lot of ableism about my origins.

Good luck out there -- and I hope you get what you need as well. I hope we all do.