Who's Number One: Bonnie, Or Kim? (Redux)

Thoughts on Brick Flagg

So, I've seen Brick labelled as a "bully jock" character, usually lumped with characters like Flash Thompson (Spider-Man), Dash Baxter (Danny Phantom), and Brad Morton (American Dragon: Jake Long). However, I don't think Brick deserves to be in that group.

Firstly, we never actually see Brick bully anyone. It's never even implied he does that. Whenever someone's picking on Ron, Brick isn't around. The only time Brick gets aggressive is with Hirotaka, but never anyone else. Truly, that exchange with Hirotaka was out of character for Brick, not the norm.

Secondly, Brick actually seems to like Kim and Ron. He willingly sits with them and talks with them in "Royal Pain" and has had pleasant interactions in other episodes. Brick has never insulted either of them, and doesn't seem interested in doing so. Surely, Brick isn't a mean-spirited guy.

(I also want to mention that when Brick sees bulked-up Ron in "Ron the Man", he seems a little concerned until Ron assures him it's nothing to worry about, at which point he's just supportive.)

Lastly, Brick is actually a sensitive guy. In "All The News" he openly talks about his feelings. He mentions that he was devastated when Amelia dumped him and lost a game because of it. Typical "bully jock" characters don't talk about their feelings, they just beat someone else up to deal with them. But Brick doesn't do that. He opens up to people and talks about his feelings, not beat other people up.

Sure, Brick is definitely lacking in intelligence, as Barkin mentions in "Ill-Suited" that it took him seven years to finish high school, but he's not a bully. He'd be more of the "dumb jock" variety than "bully jock".

He could also fall under the "himbo" category, but I don't think the fandom's ready for that talk yet.

That is another excellent point, but it's still disturbing.

Even if it was just those three, the fact that they either didn't know what The Isle was like or didn't care is disturbing.

In Beauty and The Beast, Adam was cursed into the form of a beast because he behaved cruelly towards someone who turned out to be an enchantress (or fairy).

Only once Beast starts learning to be a kind person does someone fall in love with him and break the curse.

Cinderella got a movie where Anastasia made amends with Cinderella and found love on her own. Fairy Godmother would know about that.

So, clearly, everyone who was ever a villain or a villain's sidekick, or people who are descended from villains, should be forced to live in squalor. No one can ever grow as a person and do better, and their children are guaranteed to be as bad as them no matter what we do. /s

The whole story was about how anyone can grow past being a monster if they want to and are given the chance. To say that no one else should ever get that opportunity and that the kids of villains are damned just for being their kids is wildly out of character for all of them.

I guess most people assume all the heroes would know because they were sending their own villains there, and it'd seem weird and out of character to not ask questions.

But Beast doing a lot of lying, manipulating, and bribing would make sense.

Unfortunately, it'd mean Beast kind of sucks.

The most unbelievable thing about Disney's Descendants is that the princes and princesses, people who are known for being kind and compassionate, would be okay with literal children living on The Isle, despite knowing what things are like on The Isle, just because their parents are villains.

Like, I'll believe they decided to put their dangerous villains there to protect everyone.

(Not villains like LeFou and Smee though, because they're just not worth the trouble.)

But you expect me to believe that no one thought it wouldn't be fair to punish the kids for their parents' crimes? That people who are known for being kind thought this was fair?

Sorry, not buying it.

And it's not that they didn't know, because everyone knew the villains had kids, so they just, somehow, honestly thought this was a good idea.

But I don't believe it.

I understand that it has to be that way for plot reasons. My proposed change would be a very simple one:

They didn't know there were kids on The Isle.

They only found out shortly before Ben was going to be coronated, because Belle and Adam wanted to check on The Isle one more time before it became Ben's responsibility.

Thus, Ben immediately decides to invite some VKs to Auradon for a better life, but Belle and Adam are concerned that the VKs might be a lot like their parents. He agrees to only invite a few at first, but he's confident that they're not evil, just in terrible conditions.

It’s weird that they simply dropped Josh Mankey as a character. All they have done with him was say he and Kim drifted apart and we don’t even get an explanation of where he went last season. Wish they actually shown us the progress of the relationship and how it broke apart.

Yeah, that is weird.

My personal headcanon: the reason he's not seen later in the series is because he graduated. I mean, there's nothing that states he's the same age as Kim and Ron, so he could be older.

As for his relationship with Kim, I would have liked to see more of it, and gotten a better explanation for why they broke up.

I mean, and this isn't an attempt to diss Kim, saying they drifted apart and it was time to move on sounds like the explanation you give when you don't want to talk about the real reason you broke up.

Obviously, Josh hadn't done anything bad, otherwise Kim wouldn't have had a problem talking about it, but I doubt it was truly as simple as growing apart.

There could be a lot of reasons for their breakup, and I'm very interested in hearing what other people think might have been the actual reason.

I actually don't have a lot of complaints about Project: Rainbow, but I dislike how the Rainbow High vs Rainbow High thing was handled.

More specifically, Avery.

After being told that her accessory designs weren't unique enough, she decided the best thing to do, instead of designing new accessories, is to make a dress to go with the accessories.

And she gets praised for ignoring Maria's advice.

Here's the thing: I wear my favorite accessories with a lot of different outfits.

I'm not interested in accessories that only look good with one specific outfit. Most people aren't.

And Avery shouldn't be praised for ignoring Maria's advice. It was an accessory design challenge, not a dress design challenge.

She should have been gently told that, while her dress was amazing, it was an accessory design challenge, and she didn't meet the challenge requirements.

They still could have Aiden volunteering to be the one who goes back to class, because his reason wouldn't have changed, but now we could give Avery a good learning experience.

And it's especially a problem in situations where Marinette isn't actually wrong, so they need to warp the universe to make her wrong.

Marinette's not wrong for saying Chloe had no heart in "Zombizou" because Chloe was certainly acting like it.

Marinette's not wrong for disbelieving Chloe in "Antibug", Chloe had previously lied to them in that episode about the akuma.

Marinette's not wrong for being confused over her feelings for Luka and Adrien, she's a teenage girl.

Marinette's not wrong for wanting to call out Lila for lying and manipulating, she's a liar and manipulative.

Marinette's not wrong for not taking Chat Noir's flirtations seriously, he flirts with a lot of people and doesn't take his job seriously.

Marinette's not wrong for not showing up for Chat Noir's date, she had already told him she wouldn't be there.

She's certainly not wrong for not wanting ice cream when she's too upset to eat it.

It's not just that they wrote over 100 ways for Marinette to do something wrong, it's that they wrote 100 episodes that portray Marinette as wrong, even when she isn't.

I can understand the "lesson of the day" formula, but the writers of Miraculous drastically misunderstood the assignment.

In Defense of Marinette

I like Marinette. While there are many valid criticisms of her writing, the same can be said for literally every other character and she's actually doing pretty well given that she's the main character. After all, in a show where consistent characterization is an ongoing issue, the one with the most screen time will probably be the one who's the biggest victim of the issue.

This is heavily exacerbated by the rule that supposedly governs Miraculous. Namely that, in each story, Marinette must make a mistake. Or, at least, so says the head writer:

I really do not care what this guy says on Twitter or anywhere else. I only care about what's in the show because, if you have to go outside the text to understand the text, then you have no idea how to tell a good story.

However, unlike many of the tweets that I've seen, this one isn't some BS bit of lore. It's a writing rule and it has substantial backing in the text. It's extremely rare to have an episode where Marinette comes out smelling like roses and that's a problem because Miraculous has over 100 episodes. In other words, to follow this rule, the writers have to come up with over 100 ways for Marinette to be wrong so of course she's going to come across poorly. Why would you do this to your main character?

It's extremely common for kids shows to have a "lesson of the day" element to them. Someone always needs to learn something, but I've never seen a show misunderstand the assignment so badly. Learning a lesson is not the same as doing something wrong.

It's been a while since I watched the 2010 version of My Little Pony, but it really leaned into that whole "lesson of the day" thing and it actually knew what it was doing, so I'm going to talk about it briefly to discuss things that Miraculous should have done.

The first thing to note is that MLP had an unambiguous main character - Twilight Sparkle - but Twilight was not the one who learned all of the lessons. She had a pet dragon and a crew of five friends who would, occasionally, be the ones to learn the lesson because there were lots of lessons that simply didn't fit Twilight's character. Instead of warping Twilight to make the idea work (cough cough Ikari Gozen cough), the writers just let someone else have the spotlight for a bit.

This is an excellent way to build out your cast and Miraculous had plenty of opportunities to do it. For example, Lila should not have been Marinette's issue. The fact that Lila hates Marinette could have certainly stuck around, but the one who takes her down and learns to investigate her sources? That should have been Alya. A liar is the perfect enemy for an investigative journalist, but a poor enemy for someone who shines as a battlefield commander and overthinks when she's given too much time.

Another way that MLP would teach lessons was to have someone other than Twilight or the main crew cause the issue that they then had to deal with. This leads to one of the best moments in children's television:

And, frankly? Marinette deserves a moment like this. That poor girl has been through hell and is never allowed to make the right call when it really matters. The show will even completely rewrite its lore to make her fail (see: Strike Back). That is such an awful thing to do to your lead! Shows about female empowerment should include women feeling powerful and, no, Lila and Chloe don't count!

Also, the show is literally about Gabriel taking advantage of people who are upset. You don't need to have Marinette make a mistake to shoehorn in a life lesson. Akumas are life lesson fodder and season 1 actually seemed to get this. I'm not sure why they switched gears to "Marinette is the star and, therefore, must always be wrong."

The final way that MLP taught lessons was to have Twilight do something wrong because having your main character do something wrong is a totally valid way to teach lessons. It just shouldn't be your only way because you know who is always wrong in children's media?

Villains.

They wrote Marinette like a villain.

And a large part of the fandom hates her for it because of course they do.

You're not supposed to like villains.

Lying is NOT a Superpower

Obviously, there are a lot of things I hate about Lila as a character, if she can even be called that.

But, I want to talk about how others treated her.

"Chameleon" is Lila's second appearance in the series. In this one, Marinette wants to warn her friends that Lila is a liar and manipulative, and Adrien thinks they shouldn't. For some reason.

When he apologizes later, Marinette doesn't get mad. She reassures him that he did nothing wrong, even though he did.

Marinette tries several times throughout the series to convince people, mostly Alya, that Lila is lying, but Alya chalks it up to jealousy about Lila having a crush on Adrien.

When Lila's lies are revealed, Alya apologizes and berates herself for being gullible. Marinette reassures her by claiming lying is it's own superpower.

No, lying is not a superpower. Anyone can do it.

Lila's lies aren't even convincing if you think about them for a few seconds.

Lila claimed to know Prince Ali. Too bad they don't have a classmate who also knows Prince Ali and gets along with him really well. Too bad she wouldn't be able to write him a letter or call to confirm he knows Lila. (Rose)

She claimed Jagged Stone wrote a song about her and that she saved a kitten. Too bad they don't have multiple classmates who's mom worked with Jagged Stone and can confirm he hasn't had a cat in decades. Or at least know all of his songs well enough to realize none of them are about Lila. (Luka and Juleka)

She claimed Ladybug saved her life and that they're best friends. Too bad the journalist of the group didn't even think about that before posting it. Or decided to confirm with Ladybug first. (Alya)

She claimed she once saw a guy in India get his eye gouged out by a napkin. Too bad no one's smart enough to point out how that's impossible. (Max)

She claimed to get injured from Marinette pushing her down the stairs. Too bad no one took her to a doctor to get the injury treated.

Lying isn't a superpower. Most of Lila's lies come apart if you think about them.

Heck, Luka and Juleka get to hang out with Jagged later in the series, so the fact that they never found out Lila was lying is ridiculous.

The real superpower is how dumb everyone acts around Lila. Not one person is able to see through Lila's lies, even when they're obvious.

And if you have to dumb down your cast for the villain to succeed, they're not a good villain.

Worst of all, no one is being held accountable for it.

The message here is that you're supposed to just forgive people for blindly following a liar over you.

No, scratch that, you're supposed to just forgive people for accusing you of being a jealous liar when you try to warn them.

You certainly shouldn't point out how they blindly trusted her when they could've easily disproven her lies.

You shouldn't tell them how horrible and alone you've felt because everyone chose to believe the liar over you.

And it is a choice.

Lila states in "Chameleon" that no one thinks she's lying because they like what she has to say. That they don't want her to be lying.

Maybe not a conscious choice at first, but when Alya chooses to say Marinette's lying about Lila because of jealousy instead of believing her best friend, it became a conscious choice.

When your friends apologize and beg forgiveness for something they've done wrong, you're supposed to smile and assure them they did nothing wrong.

Your feelings here don't matter.

It's not their fault.

Lying is a superpower.

About the "kwamis as mentors" angle: Interesting to read and analyse, yet I can't help but feel they were not necessarily meant to be seen as mentors. At least to me, they seemed to be kind of whacky mascot characters who are tied to the lore, who have a personality to crack a joke or point something out or cause a little situation or be cute, but nothing more.

They are rather naive magical entities chained to jewelry (a fact they don't seem to mind that much or think about at all except for Plagg) and all that talk about "being around for 5000 years" and having seen many holders before is just there to make them seem more wise than they actually act like. From what I've seen on the show I would even assume there's a threshold to how much they can even mature emotionally and understand humans. Sometimes Tikki and Plagg even come off as indifferent and egoistical towards their holders (like an example you gave with Tikki, or Plagg's fixation on cheese over Adrien at times).

So...sorry if I missed it, but why do you view them as mentor characters? You made an interesting post about rom-com vs magical girl and the magical girl part is exactly why I always viewed them just as critters to appeal to kids, but nothing more. I can see that the show's writing is so inconsistent that sometimes they are portrayed as wise but more often then not they are just background noise to get a little interaction on screen so that the characters are not talking to themselves about miraculous stuff or to point something out for the audience.

The show's writing is pretty weird, so there are elements that are hard to get a clear read on. The Kwamis are one such element. When they're one-on-one with their chosen, they often feel like mentors to me. When they're all together, they almost always read like "critters to appeal to kids" (mostly because there are too many of them to let them have individual personalities when they're all together). So while I think that they're supposed to be mentors, it's not like that's the only canon-accurate read.

To dig into what I mean by the one-on-one writing, let's look at this exchange from Feast:

Master Fu: See, Wayzz? If Marinette had kept her Miraculous, the sentimonster would have swallowed her right up. Wayzz: Or she would have transformed into Ladybug and fought it. Master Fu: Sometimes fighting is futile, Wayzz.

And then later on we get this:

Wayzz: Master, look! Ladybug and Cat Noir, despite their ridiculous costumes, they haven't let you down! Wang Fu: That's impossible! They don't have their Miraculous! Wayzz: Master, it's obvious it's them—who else would do something so crazy? Cat Noir (Adrien): Hey, have a taste of this! Some exploding banana split from Bananoir! Ladybug (Marinette): Much tastier than any Miraculous! Wayzz: Look, Master, there's no use in running! Your disciples never give up the fight, no matter what! With or without their Miraculous, they are Ladybug and Cat Noir!

That's some pretty active mentoring right there.

Wayzz is probably the character that feels the most like a mentor to me. When he's with Fu, he feels like Fu's partner or adviser, which is why I think that the Kwami's aren't supposed to just be cute critters. They're regular ol' Jimmy Crickets meant to act as a conscience that the characters can talk to since this is visual media and you want a way for the characters to talk through their thoughts instead of having them do it all internally.

I also present this exchange from Desperada as evidence:

Adrien: Plagg, Ladybug needs me. She needs "Adrien"! Plagg: If you asked me, this whole idea is worse than cheese in a can. Adrien: She thinks I'm the perfect guy for this mission. Plagg: You can't be Cat Noir and another superhero at the same time! Which means that you're not the perfect guy for this mission. Adrien: The Lucky Charm told her I am. Plagg: That's not how it works. Why am I bothering? You're not even listening.

We then get Plagg reiterating that this is a bad idea through multiple loops, ending with this:

Plagg: Ah! At last, you've come to your senses. Adrien: I'm not sure Ladybug will have very fond memories of her experience with "Adrien Agreste". Plagg: Then make up for it as Cat Noir.

See? I told you Plagg can be a good mentor when he wants to! Tikki, take notes!

I'd even call this bit from Sapitos some quality subtle mentoring from Trixx:

Alya: Oh please, Ladybug! We'd make a great team! I could help Cat Noir and you every day! Ladybug:(her earrings ring) I'm about to transform back! Hurry! Alya: Please? Ladybug: I have to go! I'm trusting you! (opens a nearby door and goes inside, so she can detransform) Trixx: You're absolutely right, Alya. I'm sure the three of you would make quite the team! You have all the makings of a true superhero. You're strong, brave; but most of all, you're trustworthy.

Way to both build Alya up and reminder her of her duty, Trixx. Gold star. Quality mentorship!

So are the Kwamis supposed to be mentors? Who knows! I just see them fill the role often enough to feel comfortable judging them through that lens.

Miraculous also isn't the only magical girl team show to make the cute critters into mentors. That's a pretty standard path even though it's also common to see the critters used to sell merch/appeal to kids and nothing more. In terms of classic magical girl team shows, I'd say that the Kwamis are written way more like Luna and Artemis from Sailor Moon than Mini Mew from Tokyo Mew Mew.

Is surprising how much of the humor was based at Ron’s expense, specially when some of his behaviors like having hyperfixation over things he liked (Bueno nacho, wrestling) or scenes where he had to deals with issues such as dealing with fear, phobias and/or anxiety were oftentimes downplayed of painted in a way to make him look “funny”, “silly” or “dumb”.

Ron more often than not read as being neurodivergent and gender non conforming.

Why make fun of him using the things that could potentially make him relatable towards the audience?

I also agree with you about Kim feeling too perfect at times.

An argument I’ve heard people make was that Ron stole Kim’s spotlight at the end of the show. In that it was supposed to be “The Kim possible show, not Ron stoppable” Do you think this argument has any merit?

Sometimes I wish Ron as a character was convinced as a girl instead of a boy, to show girls could be silly, weird and awkward and still manage be useful in their own ways. (Similar to Luz from the owl house or Lilo from Lilo and Stitch).

This is part of the reason why despite being a girl, I always liked him and related to him more than with Kim. You feel the same way, don’t you?

Yeah, a lot of the things that Ron was made fun of for are things that made him relatable to the audience, so it seems like a terrible idea to make fun of those traits.

And making fun of him for things like being gender nonconforming, being neurodivergent, or having PTSD-induced phobias, is not something that seems funny 20 years later.

(Whether or not Ron was intended to be any of those things, he was coded that way, so it's hurtful to people who relate to him to see him being made fun of for that.)

And Ron was a main character, but he was mostly there to be made fun of.

What's the point of a main character who's sole purpose is to be made fun of?

Kim did feel overly perfect; her parents are too permissive with non-menial jobs, she's relatively popular, and she's rarely shown to not be instantly good at things.

She's known to practice cheerleading, but "A Sitch in Time" shows her doing an impossible routine on her first tryout.

She's never shown receiving any kind of Kung Fu training, but is apparently very skilled anyways.

All in all, Kim's life is perfect, and it makes it hard for people to relate to her.

I do think the focus shifted away from Kim a bit in season 4, especially once Hana was introduced. It definitely felt like there were more Ron-centric episodes in that season than in any of the previous three.

(They hadn't actually planned on continuing the show after "So The Drama", so I guess they didn't have as many plots for Kim as they did for Ron.)

Honestly, Kim having a female friend who's silly, weird, and awkward would have been awesome. Not every female character needs to be serious and focused all the time.

I'm not sure if I'd want it to be a female version of Ron, but I would think it'd be great to introduce a character like that.

Especially if it causes Kim to reflect on her relationship with Ron and how she's treated him at times.

Yes, I do relate to Ron more than I relate to Kim. I am female, but I am also neurodivergent and gender nonconforming, and Ron is a character I relate a lot to.

And I'm not the only one.

So a show indirectly making fun of me isn't something I'm okay with.

Not sure if you considered this, but does Ms. Bustier's partner agree with her teaching methods, given how supportive she was in canon?

I imagine Giselle gets a very...biased reimagining of what happens in Bustier's class. She's only got Caline to go off of sooooo...

Thoughts on Yori and do you ship her with Ron?

I actually really like Yori and wish we had seen more of her.

She was unfalteringly, unconditionally supportive of Ron. And he definitely wasn't getting a lot of support back home at the time.

She wasn't jealous of Kim, ever. She was happy for Kim and Ron, even if meant Ron was no longer an option.

If things were different, Ron/Yori would have been a great couple, and I do like to imagine it sometimes.

But, for all her support, Yori wasn't a sidekick. She was extremely skilled, fiercely powerful, unafraid of combat, and willing to face danger to do what's right.

A lot like Kim in those ways, but supportive and patient towards Ron where Kim isn't.

I wish we had seen more of Yori because I feel like she could have helped Ron work on a lot of his issues, like his lack of confidence, and led to some great character development for him. Even if they had never ended up being a couple, their friendship would have been amazing as well.