Bruce Wayne: Any Religion You Want, Really

Bruce Wayne: any religion you want, really

So for Reasons, I had to figure out Bruce Wayne’s religious affiliations or lack thereof. The resulting tangle was impressive, and mostly left me going, “Comics authors sure fail to think through the implications of their backstory decisions a lot!” I meant to do a full fancy post with a dozen citations. I have misplaced all of those citations and the hour has come, so I’m going to wing it and tell you what I’ve got with no evidence whatsoever. Anyone who wants to throw them on in replies (either “here’s the issue where” or “here’s a good clearinghouse article”) is obviously welcome.

1) The Waynes (historically) are definitely Episcopalian, both by the general religious affiliations of their location/race/class and the crosses in most depictions of his parents’ graves.

2) Frank Miller made him Catholic. But Frank Miller makes a lot of people Catholic. Most people who make him Catholic do so via his mother, and let Thomas Wayne stay Episcopalian.

3) Kate Kane is Jewish. Kate Kane, his cousin via his mother’s brother, is practicing Jewish with Jewish parents and had a Bat Mitzvah and everything. Kate Kane is almost definitely Jewish via a family tree that makes Bruce Wayne matrilineally Jewish, and the nature of that inheritance is he doesn’t have to claim it if he doesn’t want to, but yeah, he is as Jewish as he says he is. Even if he wakes up tomorrow feeling Jewish and has never said it before in his life.

4) Bruce Wayne claimed in a 2018 comic to have ditched faith when his parents died, so he can also be as atheist as you want him to be.

5) Bruce Wayne did the whole world-tour weeks-of-silent-meditation thing, so if you want him to have latched onto Zen philosophy, it’s entirely defensible; it doesn’t require belief in any new gods and the principle of Right Action is very large in his life whether or not he formally subscribes to it.

None of these things have to conflict except possibly “which one he subscribes to at this exact moment,” and even then several of them can stack. The stickiest possible point is his mother’s faith, and this is the very easy path that makes all of these things true, courtesy of my nerdy Canadian first reader, Maribou:

In Montreal in particular, and many other cities in general, there are both large Catholic and large Jewish populations, which were crammed close together by societal prejudice for a long time and which had multiple wealthy and powerful families of their own even under that stress, such as the Bronfmans. There were a lot of intermarriages, and a common result was children being encouraged to choose a religious path after a thorough education in their parents’ options. (Basically, “It’s time to schedule either your Confirmation or your Bat Mitzvah, which venue should we book?”)

So a Bronfman woman and a Kane man could easily have married and had a bunch of kids including Martha Kane and Jacob Kane. Martha may (or may not!) have picked a Confirmation. Jacob definitely picked a Bar Mitzvah. All of these things can be true.

When I was discussing this with a Jewish person, she said she knew of a relative of exactly Martha Wayne’s (original) generation who was practicing Jewish until her marriage to a Protestant and then just… never talked about it again. If she practiced, she practiced privately. It disappeared utterly from her public life. That was a not-uncommon occurrence in that era.

The odds are that Bruce was raised moderately-disinterested Episcopalian, by the matching crosses. But he is arguably an Episcopally baptized, matrilineally Jewish atheist who subscribes to Zen and has inherited a bone-deep taste for Catholic passion plays. All of these things can be true without even cancelling each other out.

In the words of Frank Miller (who I agree with for once), “He’s kind of like a diamond. You can throw him against the wall and you can pound him with a hammer, but you can’t break him. Every interpretation seems to work. […] You can do it badly, but you can’t really do it wrong.”

More Posts from Panfriedgarlicbread and Others

7 months ago

red hood jason being written following his characterisation as seen in barr's tec and ntt... red hood jason acting like a polite young man... red hood jason sometimes flashing the most innocent looking shy smile because he's feeling awkward... but it coming off as scary because of the violence he incites on daily basis. yes i would enjoy it...


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9 months ago

Tim's Ao3 AU

just got the image of tim writing red hood x oc fanfic but the oc is basically tim/red robin and each time the A/N is like

"sorry no beta im mid-shoot out with some gang leaders atm"

and the content ranges from super fluffy to the most degenerative porn wanting to lick his skull and the authors notes are like

"heey sorry for the slow update i got shot again and im forced on bed rest but now i have an excuse to work on the next chapters!!"

now i want a fic where its like

it gets more and more outrageous, and the comments are just people debating whether its real or not and then there's 1 comment.

that comment is like.

"Pick Up Your Phone, Now. -D"

and tims like

"::) im in trouble::)"

theres one person dissing out the red hood and how he's so terrible and will never actually deserve someone loving him and tim replies with

"Loompa Roompa might malfunction for a while"

and the person is like *how the fuck do you know the name of my roombah what the hell is this why it's been turning on and off at night what the fuck*"

tims username is pretty bird or somth bcs thats what jason called him at least once before and hes like yes i can be pretty and a bird i can be whatever you want me to be

(totes not because thats what jason always calls tim in my head no no)

dick just really, really wants answers but also is deeply, deeply concerned

"tim you had a 20k fic of red hood lovingly taking care of you and hugging you like you'd never been hugged before. are you like, okay?"

"you.. you read all of that?"

"that's besides the point. now answer the question"

"i dont know how to feel about this"

"how do you think i feel? i didnt need to know about any of it"

"and yet you do. curiosity killed the cat, dick."

"alright i wont bother you if you promise to talk with dinah or some jl approved therapist about... the hugging touch starved things. if you dont tho ill just send jason your ao3 account babs said he has one so he can see all your shit'

"i think i would feel better if you just stabbed me"

dick makes a lemon bitten face.

"..."

"..."

"you saw that too, huh."

"yep."

"i dont have a kink for being stabbed. i have a jason fetish. just him and whatever he decides to do to me so dont worry i wont be out getting stabbed by randos"

"I'm glad but also i wanna circle back to the jason fetish part i feel like thats something i should worry about"

20k fanfic where tim just rants about jasons soft hoodie

jason, meanwhile, he sees someone w the username idk PrettyBirdRedHoos in his comments and hes concerned someone figured out he was robin but goes to look and this persons bookmarks are all just fics written by a 'PrettyBird" user and all of them are red hood/oc, and some of them is like; piercing kink, some of them are 20k fics where the oc falls asleep wearing their hoodie, one of them is a very specific scenario where the red hood 'playfully attacks' the OC on top of a tall building and they fuck nasty and jay is like

this. is too detailed. to be a coincidence innit.

and the comments are just people debating how real these scenarios are and every single person that disses RH has something hacked or exposed and jays like 'ah. well, timmy certainly has a hobby."

he could tell him that he knows.

he could also choose to be an absolute tease. forget a hoodie there, wear some bootyshorts here, not wear a binder while wearing a tank-top here, spit out a specific phrase tims used in a fic before just to keep him on his toes. it's fun watching him squirm.


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9 months ago
panfriedgarlicbread - and other anomalies

Is there any confirmation that Tim was born Gotham City? It’s said that he moved a lot growning up, but was it just around Gotham? The USA? The whole world? Does canon even specify that?

Fun Fact: New 52!Tim is actually from New York City.

We don't have a specific on page confirmation that Tim was born in Gotham, however the Drakes as a family are very much from Gotham. Tim mentions during Gates of Gotham #1 that his grandfather called the bridges "the Gates", an old turn of the 20th century term for the main bridges. The family have been in Gotham a long time.

Every house we know about is in Gotham: there are several different apartments or condos mentioned over the years in various parts of the city proper. Jack was uncomfortable about the idea of a move out to Bristol as it was too quiet and he was used to the city itself. Drake Industries was headquartered in Gotham.

Tim hypothetically could have been born somewhere else, if you want Jack and Janet travelling around even while Janet is extremely pregnant or getting stuck in a city when Janet was no longer cleared to fly, but he's from Gotham, as is his father and grandfather.

(Witness protection not!Tim Drake from n52 aside)


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8 months ago

sleeper body tim is something i think about often. like visually he looks like he has the skeletal structure of a cooked noodle but in reality he’s super strong. for example:

jason: shit the door is locked. move i’ll shoot the lock

tim: no don’t waste a bullet, i got this

jason: wtf are you gonna—

tim: *kicks door down*

jason: *horrified*

OR him taking his blazer off at a gala and people being able to see the muscles in his arms through his shirt when he moves. the morning after the gala there are articles like:

Billionaire Bruce Wayne’s adopted son and CEO of WE Timothy Drake-Wayne is secretly buff?

Also imagine him beating everyone in arm wrestling because he just takes them by surprise.


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9 months ago

i think the best and most accurate writing decision ever made for tim was having him imagine cass being batman in the future

I Think The Best And Most Accurate Writing Decision Ever Made For Tim Was Having Him Imagine Cass Being

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7 months ago

The thing about the All-Blades and killing "true evil" is that evil is subjective right, and I imagine he can sense more mundane evil too he just doesn't feel the same call to use the blades. But like, I think it's fair to say that the Joker is the exception. I think even aside from the trauma Jason can feel the pull to rid the world of him. Imagine being Jason "literal divine power of justice" Todd and having Bruce tell you that actually you don't get to decide who lives or dies. Your anger is literally so righteous and purifying that you have magic swords attached to your soul and some rich man is telling you that you can't play god. I would be soooo mad like what are you even talking about. Perhaps you can't but I am the subject of a prophecy and also probably immortal and also I'm definitely not entirely human anymore. So.


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9 months ago
I'm Starting A Collection
I'm Starting A Collection
I'm Starting A Collection
I'm Starting A Collection
I'm Starting A Collection
I'm Starting A Collection
I'm Starting A Collection

I'm starting a collection


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9 months ago

I think what I love the most about Reverse Robin AU TimJay is the absolute potential for hero worship with Jason toward Tim. In canon we often forget that Tim didn't really care for Jason as Robin, meanwhile as I never shut up about, Jason has been weirdly respecting and obsessed with Tim since finding out about Tim's existence. So if you flip their order, make Tim Red Hood and make Jason Red Robin, there's so much room for hero worship from Jason.

As Robin, Jason has always teetered that edge of being pro-murder or not. Whether you believe he killed Felipe or not, even in his Post-Crisis introduction as Robin, he almost kills Two Face. Those concepts of lethal justice have always been brewing inside him, just reigned in by Bruce. So if you have Robin!Jason witnessing Red Hood!Tim start killing people and quickly making noticeable change in the landscape of gangs in Gotham, Jason would take quick notice. I think Tim as Red Hood would still be lethal, but there'd be a different application than Jason's Red Hood. Heads in duffle bags isn't Tim's style, even if he kills. I think you'd see something much more akin to that time Tim almost killed Boomerang, where it's such an elaborately thought out set up, it realistically doesn't even look like Tim killed anyone. It'd take months for Bruce to connect this string of deaths as anything other than coincidental, let alone link them to Red Hood. And Jason is wickedly smart, even as Robin. Jason, putting those pieces together before Bruce does and witnessing the undeniable positive change for Gotham it's enacting? Robin!Jason would be incredibly drawn in by that, and then even more-so, a Red Robin!Jason who has to grapple with being replaced to make room for the next Robin would I think, in anger, turn to Red Hood. And Tim would push him away at first, his plans don't have room for a scorned teenager who's trying to get back at Bruce and Nightwing!Damian like this- but I think Jason would wear him down. Prove to Tim that Jason can think on his wavelength.

Slightly related, what interests me about Red Hood!Tim is how it'd implicate his closeness to Ra's. Jason is taken into the League by Talia in Lost Days and Ra's doesn't necessarily approve of Jason's presence, especially not of Talia dunking him in the Pit, but Ra's has always canonically been A Little Weird about Tim. I think in a world Tim dies as the second Robin, it would be Ra's who dunks Tim to preserve his mind that Ra's thinks shouldn't be wasted, and you have the potential for 'apprentice of Ra's' Tim wrapped up in it all, even without him experience the Red Robin arc. So when it's Jason as Red Robin, instead of him going to Ra's when he's scorned by the Batfamily, he goes to Tim. The person he once idolized, because I think Tim would've been Jason's Robin. Smart, competent, a strong legacy to live up to. And now he's back, and he's pro-killing, an edge that Jason has always teetered on and would feel even closer to when he's replaced by a young Dick. I think Tim wouldn't ever be able to get rid of Jason.

Then on Tim's side, I think his reaction to being replaced after his death would be a complicated one. Objectively, being the Robin who believes Batman needs a Robin, he'd respect the logic and know Bruce was always going to replace him eventually. But still, there's always going to be that instinctual emotional reaction of betrayal and replacement. I think he'd view Jason at first with anger and distance, but then, seeing Jason as this street kid with begrudging potential, I could see Red Hood!Tim testing Jason. Constantly throwing things at Jason, seeing how he reacts, if he lives up to being Robin. Tim has a need for analyzing people, understanding their strengths and weaknesses. And he seems the Robin mantle very uniquely, he'd need to have it proven to him that Jason can handle it.

So you would have this dynamic of Jason hero worshipping Tim, slowly believing in Tim's methodology. While Tim is at first dismissive of him, but then starts to test him, see what makes this kid tick. And I think the TimJay potential of Jason trying to prove himself to Tim could be Neat.


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9 months ago

Tim Drake’s Friends (not to be confused with Red Robin’s friends)

Inspired by this post by cryptocism, I bring you: Tim Clique-Breaker Drake. 

(Don’t mind me, this is also basically just me taking notes for a fic I’m working on. Tim’s various normal boy friendships. High School Musical has nothing on Tim Drake.) 

(One of these days I’ll write half these characters’ DC Database entries. Today is not that day. All characters listed know Tim primarily as Tim Drake; anyone who knows Tim primarily as Robin/Red Robin, or who know Tim equally as Tim and Robin, is not included. If I miss someone… I missed someone.)

Keep reading


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9 months ago

The bats need a scandal to distract Vicki

So ofc Tim takes Anita's parents to bring-your-kid-to-work-day

All would be well, if the Bats didn't think he was the father as well.

Bonus: "uncle Timmy?" Tim stares down at the child pulling on his trouser leg, "Yeah?"

The girl pointed towards the wafting smoke from Vicki's car, before waving a stolen box of matches. "Whoops."


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panfriedgarlicbread - and other anomalies
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